SS #60: History as a Center Cannot Hold (with Angelina Stanford!)
Our guest today is the lovely and delightfully controversial Angelina Stanford.
Angelina has an Honors Baccalaureate Degree and a Master’s Degree in English Literature from the University of Louisiana. For over twenty-five years, she has shared her passion and enthusiasm for literature with students in a variety of settings — everywhere from university classrooms to homeschool co-ops to homeschooling her own three children. You can find Angelina at angelinastanford.com where she teaches online literature classes for middle school through adult, as well as webinars and short term classes. She had a big summer, launching The Literary Life Podcast with her longtime friend Cindy Rollins, and in June she married her very own poet. Angelina lives quite happily in a honeymoon cottage in North Carolina, tracking down rare books and inspiring poetry.
In today’s episode, Brandy read Angelina a quote from herself on teaching history from last time she was on the show – she caused quite a ruckus with this one. Then, Brandy and Mystie asked her to defend herself. What resulted was a truly amazing conversation!
[35;10] The place of historical fiction, and reading out of order
[41:42] Making connections
[43:50] Not feeling boxed in by a time period really is liberating
[45:10] Picking material based on the stage of your child
[54:54] History is more than dates
[1:00:23] Not making our kids into cynics
[1:05:21] Seeking to honor the nature of the child and the subject
[108:34] The point of this to to relieve pressure, not add more
Today’s Hosts and Source
Brandy Vencel teaches history in her homeschool using Ambleside Online’s reading plan with multiple streams of history.
Mystie Winckler teaches history in her homeschool on a three year cycle using good books and no curriculum.
Source
Scholé Every Day: What We’re Reading
The institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin
Mystie is employing the classic strategy of assigning a book she has been wanting to read to her kids, and reading along with them.
Jane of Lantern Hill, L.M. Montgomery
This book reminds Brandy of Understood Betsy, another favorite, and she loves how Montgomery is so good at representing children as born persons.
Excellent Women, Barbara Pym
Angelina is consciously trying to read more fun books, because she reads so many heavy books for her job. This one was recommended by her husband, and she has been enjoying the modern Austen feel of it.
Can there be too much emphasis on history?
Neo-classical curriculums can tend to make history the unifying principle.
Dorothy Sayers famous essay was not her laying out of a systematic plan for education, it was some off the cuff observations and ideas. She throws some things out, and then encourages the reader to study the medievals and how they viewed education. And the medievals never viewed the trivium and quadrivium as stages.
Angelina loves history, but no subject should be taken out of proportion, history is just one of the muses, not the primary one.
The true need for an organizing principle
Modern mainstream education has become increasingly fragmented, we’re told math has no relation to history, or poetry, or theology, or anything else. And so the desire to have something unify the subjects is a right and good desire, because they do fit together, but giving that place to history is asking history to be something it isn’t.
Pitfalls of History as the Center
An organizing principle is a center, a thing that holds everything else together. And trying to connect everything to history can be difficult and lead to short-changing some of the other subjects. If you only have a half a year or a moth to devote to say 18th century music, because that’s when you’re studying that time period, you can miss a lot of it. For ancient time periods you’ll be scrambling to find enough art, and music, and literature, and for more modern time periods there will be way to much to cover well in the time allotted.
Another downside is that literature can start to be treated as a historical artifact, rather than like a piece of art. If all the Oddessy does is show us how Greeks of that time lived, we’re missing so much it has to offer. As Lewis says, literature should not be used, it should be received.
Classical educators can be tempted to feel like museum curators and like the guardians and preservers of dead things.
“The Medievals viewed the classical tradition not as this dead thing, but as a living soil from which new Christian culture could grow.”
Angelina Stanford, episode #60
But is there a place for historical fiction?
Of course, but we should be considering factors like reading readiness and the best age to first read certain books, and not only pick books that fit in with the historical time period we’re currently studying. Choose the literature that best fits the age and stage your children are at, not just the literature that fits with this year’s history.
Even for adults, the pressure of having to read books in chronological order can prevent making valuable connections, and make reading the classics even more intimidating if you feel like you have to start with giants like the Aneid.
The Student should be making the connections
Don’t outline and make all the connections for your student, they need to be doing that themselves.
If Classical education really is a great conversation, we should be encouraging reading and learning across time periods to facilitate that conversation for our children, not shut it down by focusing on one period at a time.
Choosing Material that Fits the Child
If you’re not bound by choosing material that fits a certain time period, you can choose what you child actually needs where they are. Regardless of whether you’re studying the 1800s in history, your seven-year-old does not need to be reading the Romantics, they still need nursery rhymes, A.A. Milne, and nonsense poetry.
“The five year old needs fairy tales, not Dante put in a blender”
Children, especially young ones, need stories where good and evil are distinct, and evil is also shown as something that can be defeated.
-A quick bashing of unit studies- Unit studies can fall into the same ditches, when you’re trying to artificially cram thing together, and just feel really restricted as far as what you’re “allowed” to study or include in the lesson plan.
History is important, and the work that has been done to remind people of that is commendable.
History is More than Dates
The study of history is more than memorizing names and dates. And especially for the elementary years a narrative and biographical approach to history is better than a memorization heavy approach.
Myths and legends are important too. The stories peoples choose to tell about themselves shows us what they value and what kind of a culture they are.
In Conclusion
It actually is freeing to be able to choose subjects and material based on what your child needs now, rather than being pressured into choosing something that fits the time period.
Oh, I love this the way I love all things Angelina Stanford. I think if I had a unifying principle for what I do with my kids, it would be beauty. Because we’ve been involved with more history-based programs, I started off down this path of beautiful things a few years ago like a bear after honey, but without a lot of apologetic backing. The more I read, the more bolstered I feel, and conversations like this are such an encouragement. It seems like they piece together a vivid sense of history incidentally, through savoring story, character, and the craft of words. And like Angelina said, you see that the connections come with ownership and delight. It was impossible for me to do what inspired wonder in us and stick to any kind of organizing principle (personal flaws…) and I am trusting that the joy of sing-songing Goblinade at age five and dressing as Athena every day at age 9 will instill ordered loves over many pages, many conversations, and many years. (Maybe my organizing principle is: can it be done all together on the couch?) Thanks as always for making me think!
Oh, she is so refreshing! And hilarious… “the babyfood version of Hell,” I don’t think I’ll ever forget that phrase. Lol.
Letting go of history as the center of the curriculum is so freeing. I’ve felt the tension of those difficulties, without knowing quite what to do with them. I think some of the appeal of history as the center stems from our own unfamiliarity with history as mothers, and the attempt to “reclaim” our own education. Once we’ve done that, it is less frightening to let go of the pole of that merry-go-round and find a new perspective.
I still have 14 minutes left to listen to, but the baby elephant in the room: AmblesideOnline is a history-centered curriculum.
I can see why you would say that, but history is most *definitely* not the logos of a Charlotte Mason education, nor is it the logos of AO.
Yes, but not like other history-centered curriculum. They have a lot of age-appropriate books that don’t fit exactly with the history timeline. They also start out with fairy tales. AO is a good blend of loosely using history as a spine and doing what Angelina talks about in reading age appropriate books.
By the way, I was thinking about this (and this might be why you’re saying this): I have definitely seen some of the younger AO moms, or transfers from other curricula, treat AO like a history-centered curriculum. So, for example, they want to choose a year based upon the time period rather than whether or not it’s the best fitting for their child’s age and maturity and ability. Or they are afraid of the fact that the artist study or folk song doesn’t match the time period. That sort of thing. I think the history-centered thinking has definitely permeated some of the CM community, which is why AO always tells moms they can’t just use AO like a booklist — they have to be reading implementing the philosophy.
At first I thought so too…but then I realized AO doesn’t line up all the artists and poets and composers and literature with the history being studied that year. Some of the free reads correspond to that year’s history but not all. So I don’t really think it fits as a “history-centered” curriculum.
I really appreciated this discussion. I happen to be using a “history centered”. Curriculum right now. But as was mentioned — it is when we are free we can use a construct that works for our family — tweaking and adjusting as we go. Just wondering, if History is not your unifying principle, what is?
I had bought the Five in a Row curriculum after many suggested it. We did 3 weeks and I was just tired of it. I sold it and switched. That’s what I thought of when y’all mentioned “forced connections”. He’s learning nursery rhymes and wonder tales now. Much better. He also makes his own connections every day. It’s very interesting to see.
Oh interesting! I’ve heard good things about the books in that curriculum, but I don’t really know how they are used. I’m glad you felt the freedom to move on! ♥
We’ve been discussing this exact thing over in the Sistership! (You should come join us!)
For me, Charlotte Mason’s assertion that “education is the science of relations” has provided the unity. That the child, because he bears God’s image, is created to have relationships with as many parts of creation as possible is the unifier.
Further, I think seeing that as my unifier actually means *Christ* is the ultimate Unifier — it is because all was created through Him and is held together by Him (Col. 1:16-17) that we who bear His image would be meant to have these relationships.
The books are amazing. I kept them all. I just finished the 2nd half of the podcast(which I loved!) and you mentioned Unit Studies! That’s what it is. Weekly unit studies. You read the chosen book every day and pick a subject or 2 and do the activities. I feel like it would be a good supplement, but not the main curriculum.
Maybe my organizing principle is: can it be done all together on the couch?
There is no shame in this. 😉
I loved this episode! I would love to see a list from Angela’s husband of his suggested progression lining up poetry (types, authors) with the developmental stages of children. Or have him on for a discussion? I began to fall in love with poetry in high school, but my earlier introduction was spotty and disjointed. I’m not sure how to transition my kids from the easily accessible poets we read now to poets with more complex language, forms, and themes.
I felt the same with FIAR. Wonderful booklists. But trying to make everything fit the book took up so much mental real estate for me…
Ladies, I loved this one! I read the Latin Centered Curriculum (both editions) a few years ago, and it’s been rattling in my head since then (while we tried other things). I believe the principles (if not the method or plan) of how that is laid out line up so nicely with with the idea of multum non multa and what Angelina speaks about regarding not forcing connections and reading age-appropriate literature.
Oh, I love this the way I love all things Angelina Stanford. I think if I had a unifying principle for what I do with my kids, it would be beauty. Because we’ve been involved with more history-based programs, I started off down this path of beautiful things a few years ago like a bear after honey, but without a lot of apologetic backing. The more I read, the more bolstered I feel, and conversations like this are such an encouragement. It seems like they piece together a vivid sense of history incidentally, through savoring story, character, and the craft of words. And like Angelina said, you see that the connections come with ownership and delight. It was impossible for me to do what inspired wonder in us and stick to any kind of organizing principle (personal flaws…) and I am trusting that the joy of sing-songing Goblinade at age five and dressing as Athena every day at age 9 will instill ordered loves over many pages, many conversations, and many years. (Maybe my organizing principle is: can it be done all together on the couch?) Thanks as always for making me think!
Oh, she is so refreshing! And hilarious… “the babyfood version of Hell,” I don’t think I’ll ever forget that phrase. Lol.
Letting go of history as the center of the curriculum is so freeing. I’ve felt the tension of those difficulties, without knowing quite what to do with them. I think some of the appeal of history as the center stems from our own unfamiliarity with history as mothers, and the attempt to “reclaim” our own education. Once we’ve done that, it is less frightening to let go of the pole of that merry-go-round and find a new perspective.
I still have 14 minutes left to listen to, but the baby elephant in the room: AmblesideOnline is a history-centered curriculum.
I can see why you would say that, but history is most *definitely* not the logos of a Charlotte Mason education, nor is it the logos of AO.
Yes, but not like other history-centered curriculum. They have a lot of age-appropriate books that don’t fit exactly with the history timeline. They also start out with fairy tales. AO is a good blend of loosely using history as a spine and doing what Angelina talks about in reading age appropriate books.
By the way, I was thinking about this (and this might be why you’re saying this): I have definitely seen some of the younger AO moms, or transfers from other curricula, treat AO like a history-centered curriculum. So, for example, they want to choose a year based upon the time period rather than whether or not it’s the best fitting for their child’s age and maturity and ability. Or they are afraid of the fact that the artist study or folk song doesn’t match the time period. That sort of thing. I think the history-centered thinking has definitely permeated some of the CM community, which is why AO always tells moms they can’t just use AO like a booklist — they have to be reading implementing the philosophy.
At first I thought so too…but then I realized AO doesn’t line up all the artists and poets and composers and literature with the history being studied that year. Some of the free reads correspond to that year’s history but not all. So I don’t really think it fits as a “history-centered” curriculum.
I really appreciated this discussion. I happen to be using a “history centered”. Curriculum right now. But as was mentioned — it is when we are free we can use a construct that works for our family — tweaking and adjusting as we go. Just wondering, if History is not your unifying principle, what is?
I had bought the Five in a Row curriculum after many suggested it. We did 3 weeks and I was just tired of it. I sold it and switched. That’s what I thought of when y’all mentioned “forced connections”. He’s learning nursery rhymes and wonder tales now. Much better. He also makes his own connections every day. It’s very interesting to see.
Oh interesting! I’ve heard good things about the books in that curriculum, but I don’t really know how they are used. I’m glad you felt the freedom to move on! ♥
We’ve been discussing this exact thing over in the Sistership! (You should come join us!)
For me, Charlotte Mason’s assertion that “education is the science of relations” has provided the unity. That the child, because he bears God’s image, is created to have relationships with as many parts of creation as possible is the unifier.
Further, I think seeing that as my unifier actually means *Christ* is the ultimate Unifier — it is because all was created through Him and is held together by Him (Col. 1:16-17) that we who bear His image would be meant to have these relationships.
The books are amazing. I kept them all. I just finished the 2nd half of the podcast(which I loved!) and you mentioned Unit Studies! That’s what it is. Weekly unit studies. You read the chosen book every day and pick a subject or 2 and do the activities. I feel like it would be a good supplement, but not the main curriculum.
There is no shame in this. 😉
I loved this episode! I would love to see a list from Angela’s husband of his suggested progression lining up poetry (types, authors) with the developmental stages of children. Or have him on for a discussion? I began to fall in love with poetry in high school, but my earlier introduction was spotty and disjointed. I’m not sure how to transition my kids from the easily accessible poets we read now to poets with more complex language, forms, and themes.
I felt the same with FIAR. Wonderful booklists. But trying to make everything fit the book took up so much mental real estate for me…
I am not sure if he provides lists here. But Angelina and Thomas Banks just opened The House of Humane Letters where they will be teaching courses. They also have some webinars which are pre-recorded. Thomas has one on How to Love Poetry. https://houseofhumaneletters.com/product/how-to-love-poetry-an-introduction-to-the-fundamentals-of-poetry/
Ladies, I loved this one! I read the Latin Centered Curriculum (both editions) a few years ago, and it’s been rattling in my head since then (while we tried other things). I believe the principles (if not the method or plan) of how that is laid out line up so nicely with with the idea of multum non multa and what Angelina speaks about regarding not forcing connections and reading age-appropriate literature.